Riot Shields

[XxGrindKingxX]

I was watching Discovery channel the other day and came across a show about swat and other tactical forces so before I go any further, no, I did not get this idea from MW2...    There was a team on the show wielding a riot shield while clearing a small house, allowing others to use it as cover simultaneously. I don't know how a riot shield would fare against bullets in real life, but in this case the man they were apprehending was brandishing a combat knife. Against guns they might not be so practical. I don't know, maybe gunfather can help with some info on that.   Now, I know there would be a lot of cons when using something like a riot shield in a sport like airsoft, but I believe that if it was used in the right games it could be pretty fun. I did some research and found that the idea has been implemented into games before, so alas it's not original.   From what I could tell, other airsoft players used it mainly in CQB, nothing like any ASN field. I think if there were restrictions on how they could be used we might be able to try it on our fields one day, that is if anyone was interested. I think that in order for it to work the shield would have to meet certain standards of size and visibility and be used only in suitable game types. The only game type that I can honestly see the riot shield working in would be VIP but some of you might think of others. I tried making a list of rules of the top of my head but couldn't get much... Maybe someone can help me add to it.

The riot shield user:

• could use only a semi-auto pistol, or maybe no weapon at all.
• could not lie down.
• could definitely not melee or "shield bash."
• must use a shield that meets certain size standards.

Now like I said earlier, this is only an idea. It is subject to a lot of revising. I am not comfortable with the concept yet either but I believe it deserved a chance for discussion. At this point I am neither for or against it, but I can't stress how much I am not trying to copy MW2 with this idea. That is the last thing I would ever want to happen. I hate those things anyway.   I just believe that it could add a new level of tactics to certain scenarios. Obviously this wouldn't be EVERY game, just once in every blue moon or so. Let me know what you think of the idea and share your thoughts on what would have to happen in order for it to work. Maybe if I add enough to my list of rules it might one day be acceptable.  

[GUNFIGHTER6]

I think if someone was going to host a an event that was a Police simulation it would be a good idea. Otherwise, not really. The use of a shield is really intended for room and house clearing, not open field work.

[gunfather6]

Well first off what you are asking about are called ballistic shields but are more commonly known as "bunkers".  The term "riot shield" refers to a light 10 lbs) plexiglas shield used in riots that is only good against impact threats (bottles, rocks, ect).  A weighs approximately 35 lbs and is a tool used to assist in the tactical clearing of buildings.  They provide the same level of protection as soft body armor.  They DO NOT stop rifle rounds or shotgun slugs.  There are shields out there that stop those type of threats but they are VERY heavy.  So heavy in fact that they are pushed around on wheels and are generally used to protect a team during approach to a structure.  The view port in a bunker offers the same ballistic protection as the bunker itself.  So the view port is not a weak point.  

A bunker man operates in a two man team (called bunker teams).  There is the bunker man who operates the bunker and is typically armed with a pistol.  I have heard of some teams that arm their bunker men with Glock 18's and I have seen photos of teams with bunker men armed with MP5k's.  I think the MP5's are just photo ops though as wielding an SMG and a bunker would be very impractical.  The main purpose of the bunker is to provide portable cover for the team.  Thus thier main function is defensive.  The second part of a bunker team is the defense man.  The defense man follows the bunker man and is armed with a long gun.  The defense man is the offensive part of the team (obviously) and shoots around and, in very rare occassions, over the bunker.  Thus defense men are typically tall and bunker men are typically short (guess which one I am most of the time).  Being a bunker man takes a lot of practice since shooting with the bunker is VERY difficult.  It is nearly impossible to use you sights and obviously you have to shoot with one hand.  You also have to know how to reload and correct malfunctions with one hand.  

Since bunkers are used defensively they are not used in hostage rescue because they tend to slow the team down.  It is also very easy to get tunnel vision while using the bunker because the view port is so small.  That is another reason why you have a drag handle on the back of your armor.  If a bunker man starts to step past a threat because he can't see it his defense man will grap the handle and pull him back.  As a bunker man you get used to being guided around like a dog sometimes.  You just go with the flow and trust your defense man as you can't take your eyes off what is in front of you.

Hope this adds some clarity to the debate.

Gunfather6

[German]

To add to what gunfather said, from someone on the receiving end of one: They can also have super bright LED lights that they flash in your eyes when entering a room.  The Lincoln Police Department SWAT team ran a training exercise in our building the week before last and I got to be one of the role-players working at my desk while they were clearing the building.  The guy running the bunker had an M9, I believe.  I did not see any MP5s at the debrief.

[Whiskey11]

Let me jump into this from the point of view of a game organizer.

Anything that modifies hit rules is going to cause abuse of the hit rules.  Creating rules to regulate abuse becomes confusing.  Confusion makes for players worrying far too much about the fine intricate details of playing and less on actually playing which in general kills gameplay.  The idea of having a tactical shield for airsoft is semi pointless.  As gunfather pointed out, it wont stop rifle rounds.  We use rifles and carbines, very few of us use sub machine guns.  I'd venture to guess that in the rare case that hell freezes over (please dont freeze, snow and ice are bad) and we get a CQB place most people will still be using their guns bar those of us with really long guns.  That pretty much means that in terms of realism, having a tac shield is semi useless as it wouldnt stop the rifle rounds.  Gunfather also pointed out that the tac shields that DO stop rifle rounds are stupid heavy and usually rolled around.

Frankly, from the game organizers point of view, they are more hassle than they are worth.

[gunfather6]

I think they would be useless in a field game.  However, in a CQB game I could see them being useful.  If nothing else than as a tactic to try and break up the inevitable choke point, 50/50 gunfights as we don't  have the use of flash bangs, explosive breaching, gas, concussion grenades, ect.  I think bunkers could be a useful tool for this purpose.  They would have to be well contructed and not just some homemade, duct tape and cardboard garbage.  As far as rules go I can't agree more with Whiskey.  Special circumanstance rules only cause confusion and ruin the game (See Medic rules).  I say if you want to use a bunker go for it but if you get shot in the leg, shin or foot you are done (just like real life).  

[Falcon7]

I agree I see the shield's only possibility in CQB.  I disagree about it changing hit rules, I think even in a field match hit rules would be fine as it would be so easy to flank, not to mention the poor bastard trying to carry that across the field.
I think it would be cool to make one out of plywood, wrap it in A/C tin and paint it up.  Cut in a plexi window and some high output LED's or maybe High pressure sodiums behind a protective lens.
As far as rules go I think it would be simple, only can be used by the offensive team, while wielding it the carrier can only use a pistol (I think they should be able to sling their weapon so later in the match they can ditch the shield and fight)

[phoenix]

Just a question pertaining to protection offered, I've seen (I think it was at the trafic assembly by the MERV,) it was like a realy large ballistic, for lack of a better word, blanket? I was just wondering what circumstances those are used over and what they are like differing from a shield? I know it has straps for the whole team to carry it it's so heavy but I was just wondering about it.

[gunfather6]

It is just a large piece of soft body armor known as a ballistic blanket.  Nothing fancy about it.  I have never seen it used operationally but it is there in case we need it. 

As far as SWAT Q&A goes just know that there is some stuff I can tell you about (like bunkers) and their is other more "sensitive" information that I can not post.  Mostly tactics and tricks of the trade related things.  Most of which is worthless in airsoft anyway since we play in the woods and don't have access to explosives.

[XxGrindKingxX]

One of my main concerns about using a riot shield in airsoft was the fear that, like Whiskey said, people would abuse the hit rules or all of the believe they are "juggernauts" and lose their tactical approach. I think it would probably be too much of a hassle as well, but if anyone ever wanted to try it out there would have to be a lot of rules in place so that we could avoid "juggernauts." My second concern was that using them in games wouldn't be very realistic. Gunfather clarified perfectly that if we wanted to simulate ballistic shields correctly, we would have to tote around a giant tank piece of metal. I don't think we could wheel anything around like that at Madcow or Nickerson.  So basically if anyone did decide to try this in a game variant we would probably have to face the facts that it would not be realistic enough to simulate a legitimate ballistic shield experience. However, it still might be a lot of fun to ignore that fact and try it out someday. In a way, there are still a lot of aspects that could be similar to the real thing. I agree that it would work best in a CQB environment though. Hopefully we will have one in the near future, or ever in the future for that matter.   

[Turner]

I would say that in the environment we live in (wooded areas) shields are not practical. How would one disable a shield? Would one shot to the shield break it? As was mentioned earlier, "bunkers" do not completely repel rifle rounds or shotgun blasts.  If we were in a urban type setting, perhaps, but once again, would one shot eliminate the "bunker" or would the player get to keep the shield an infinite amount of shots? I guess if someone made a shield out of foam, that way a bb could still hit the person, it could potentially work. But still not very practical

[Piro10132]

Making a full plexiglass shield would be simple, but I agree with Whiskey on the hit issue.  That is why if we do riot shields we should make them out of cardboard, if the bb passes through and hits you then you're hit.

[German]

I think it could be fun to have a game where someone had a bunker and even relaxing the rules and allowing them to block our rifle/sniper shots with two caveats... they must be fabricated to the same size and they have to weigh as much as the real deal.  Enjoy carrying your 16 to 22lbs shield around the field.

[phoenix]

Hey I'd still rather be hit by a rifle round going through a shield plus the plates in your armor

[Dauntless]

Riot shields/bunkers. They're a really cool idea, and could add a lot of variety to the gameplay IF you were able to make them work correctly and similarly to real life shields. Otherwise, as many of you have said they would just muck everything up. If riot shields were to be used they would have to be made of cardboard or foamboard, something that would allow some shots to go threw and others not, depending on the angle from which the shield was hit or the distance it was shot from. Weighing it down would probably be another good idea as German said. All in all, practical for real military situations, but airsoft... It's very unlikely that it would work the way It's supposed to.